Physical bow weight

[bowtech]

How many have picked a new bow based on the fact that it was so light and therefore felt so good?.
(me )

In reality....a light bow is the worst thing you could choose!.
(in terms of picking for an accurate bow)

A heavier bow does many things to enhance performance.

Reverb throughout the bow is less and therefore easier on the shooter and the cams,strings,ect.

A heavier bow is more stable in terms of pin float on the target as well due to the fact that you are lifting constantly rather than fighting horizonal movement.
Due to low center of gravity.
(compaired)

Darton bows were always great performers but most never thought about the reason behind that

Dartons are logs!! ;D

Doesnt matter though if it gets the job done right?

Most target bows are heavy enough that you would have shoulder problems at the end of the day on a long hike but they shoot and they are quite

So next time , before you buy lite....Consider not so lite

[michihunter]

Although a great number of people will agree with that statement, I for one do not. Let's do a little experiment. Hold out away from you body a gallon of milk which weighs approx 8#'s. That's the weight of a lot of compound target bows with all the goodies on them. Now spill out half that gallon and tell me how much easier is it for you to hold steady. I think there's probably a median somewhere that will be beneficial to the individual, but for me lighter is better. I'm not really holding my bow anyway. The resistance between my bow hand and the string tension holds my bow. So in that regard, I'd say DW comes more into play in the equation.As for drift, I don't get much when I'm at proper form. If the bow is in the crook of my hand and the string is hard into the wall, it really takes drift out of the picture. This is only my opinion and not one to say you are wrong BT. Just that it's different for me.

[bowtech]

Where have I heard this before

;D

[michihunter]

I'll post our responses to each other here for all to see OK BT?

Bowtechs Response:
I really should have taken more time to clairify my point

The point is that there is benifit to bows with mass and that although some bows have mass because of poor quality metals which make up the riser , others manufactures do so with purpose.

When holding at full draw (correctly) the back is doing all the work and the x-tra weight plays a positive roll in maintaining an anchor.

Think of it as if you are lifting a 100# box that is currently on your knees and you are in a sitting position.

You are going to have to use your back and you will feel it and use those mussles to assist so that you dont lose balance and fall.

Now,if you were to try and mimic this same senerio with an empty box it would be extremely difficult and probably impossable to make the back mussles conform to the same positions as before.

The weight makes the mind and body remember and conform.

A lack of weight does not let the body respond as well because there is not as much info. download.
(so to speak)

Now not everyone holds with thier back but they should and if you dont then you will not notice any gain from the added weight and may actually suffer from it.

Useing the back to hold is no diffrent than a correct anchoring point and is in fact a second anchor which brings the body in line throughout to further perfect a good form.







Michihunter's response:

I still don't see how the back has as much to do with the weight of the bow considering that it is at arms length. The upper shoulder muscles will bear the brunt of the weight as it would hiolding the milk out at arms length.The sway of the bow is going to be slower from the extra weight but not if you're solid into the wall. It will be negligible any way due to the pressure exerted backwards. That's where the back comes into play.

[intruder]

both make sense!!! but for me I like the lighter weight bows because my bow is ment for hunting with and packing around a heavier bow all day gets old fast, I just try to learn to shoot well with whatever bow I end up with ;D

[admin]

This is what it's all about, good spirited discussion with two completly different views and everyone is still friends in the end. The world would be a much better place if everyone could express their view on a subject and other parties respect their thoughts. Well done guys.

[ScottC]

My Switchback came set with the aluminum Harmonic Dampeners. After reading a thread about the dampeners in the Mathew's forum, I switched to both brass...giving me some extra weight. The bow felt better and my groups tightened up. After the season, I may try the carbide dampeners, but my bow feels good right now.

[michihunter]

I believe the key statement is- "What works best for the individual". In archery, there is no one perfect way. I liken it to golf. There are a few robotic type swings on the circuit, but that doesn't necessarily equate to success. Not too many people would say John Daly's swing is a thing of beauty, but it's effective for him. Watch Tiger Woods when he blasts a shot!! It isn't something any pro would teach, but who can say that Tiger Woods isn't successful. Baseball's the same way. Watch Gary Sheffield at the plate!! That stance almost looks painful!! An individual needs to take all things into account and employ them to what suits him. I have people tell me my DL is too long. I'm not sure why they say that when I outshoot the majority of peiople I know WITHOUT a peep!! It works for ME!! That's what matters!! I'm pretty objective and will try something that someone says will improve my shooting, but if it don't feel comfortable, or if it doesn't BETTER my results, I drop it like a hot potato. I personally believe that comfort is the number one key to shooting well. If you aren't comfortable, you just can't enjoy shooting. If you can't enjoy shooting, you won't do it well. So go ahead and experiment, but remember, a comfortable shooter will enjoy the sport much more than one who's trying to emulate someone elses form that just doesn't fit. Especially when all a hunter is trying to do is get an arrow in a 9" target from generally less than 30 yards!! ;)That concludes todays lesson by Ted and now a word from our sponsor....... ;D ;D ;D ;D

[admin]

;D ;D ;D Well said Ted. And I agree 100%. Just because it works for you don't mean it will work for everyone and vice versa.

[ScottC]

That is the "final answer"...what works for one might not work for others. Shoot the bow what feels best for you. Put on the accessories which are best for you. If it feels good, shoot it.

[bowtech]

BT writes:
The heavier bow also aids in more consistant shot to shot performance in terms of the mechanics of the bow itself.
(I just wanted to bring that up again since it seems to be getting lost here )

Keeping on a horizonal mark to maintain target level is what its all about.

Try this test with your bow arm while you are sitting here at the computor.

Find a small mark and (with a pen/pencil)hold the very tip on that mark and watch the tip come on and off the mark as your arm moves.

Now take that coffee cup and do the same thing useing the rim of the cup to touch (visually) the same mark.

The lighter pencil will waver quickly like a flickering flame on a candle where as the cup will move in a slow pulse.

Take this example and apply it to the bow and you can see that you have more reaction time on target with the heavier bow as the pin will remain steadier longer on a vertical drop/rise.

Speaking to your set up Michi....the 2'stabilizer adds weight not only in and of the stabilizer itself but also in the effect of the counter leverage it applys.

I am sorry that I am a bad artist and put forth a bad picture for the imagination.
(therefore the need for the text on the subject which I am hoping I will hear about today )

My points may not be practical in practice for most hunters but general info. can be used in other ways or future projects so I thought it was worth going into for the sake of knowledge beyond the norm.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Michihunter replys:


OK Bowtech I follow your line of thinking, but I want you to add something to your experiment. Do the same things only now add a rubberband pulling backwards and tell me if it's still the same for you. The horizontal force eliminates the downward force. You are now using that pressure to hold staedy not gravity.
As to the addition of 2 stabilizers, I only use them due to the upward kick of my bow when shoting. That's from the low wrist I have when shooting. It's not to add weight per se, but to counteract the kick.

[bowtech]

The rubber band adds to the stablility that already exsists and one does not detract from the other.

Your stabilizers are also an addition to the performance of the bow.

Kick may be a reason for useing them but you still are adding leveraged and real weight and therefore you make advantage of both

(I love this stuff!! ;D )

[michihunter]

bowtech said:

The rubber band adds to the stablility that already exsists and one does not detract from the other.

Your stabilizers are also an addition to the performance of the bow.

Kick may be a reason for useing them but you still are adding leveraged and real weight and therefore you make advantage of both

(I love this stuff!! ;D )

I think we'll agree to disagree on this one BT, but let me add something here. If I were to add weight just at my rise and not exrtend it out a distance, it would do just that, add weight to my bow. The reason you use an extended weight is to distribute it over a distance taking away the perceived weight of it. That would indicate that the need for weight alone to stabilize a shot is not what people use to steady there aim. If that were true, people would just stack lead at the bottom of their bow. The use of the long stabilizer is to extend and distribute that weight out over a distance to take AWAY the weight of the bow. That may not be the correct choice of words but I feel you get my meaning. And I disagree that you feel horizontal force does not dissipate gravitational force. A greater force will always dissipate a smaller force. That's just plain physics. And when your talking 70#'s against the difference of 4#'s between two other weights(hypothetically speaking of a 8# bow and a 4# bow), it is only logical that the 70 will override such a small difference making it negligible. In other words, it is my contention that upon full draw at a 70# draw weight you will not notice the difference in weight of a 4# bow and a 8# bow. If you do it will be negligible. Thereby making the lighter bow a better option due to the other factors that come with hunting (re: lugging the thing around).

[bowtech]

I agree with you that the stabilizer is an item that adds stability from more than just weight but my point is that it is a net gain in two areas.

You are off in the fact that 70# comes into play here since that does not take into account let off and the point of axis in this which is the shooter.

Lets say a 60% let off which is most common which equates to 28# force horizonal.
Then an 8# bow toward vertical force.

Thats a 35% (close enough) offset to horizonal effect.

On a 99% bow the biggest thing I have heard is that it is so easy to keep the pin on target and it actually has little to do with holding weight.

Just like holding that pencil...there is no weight and therefore it is harder to control.

The reason why is because you are holding a fractional # on the horizonal and the vertical offset is extreme

It doesnt matter if we agree or not Michi. because you and I usually bring a really good arguement for either side to the discussion and that gives lots of food for thought to those who are eager to learn.... including myself


Michihunter writes:
--------------------------------------

On that we can agree on!! Debating has taking a turn for the worse and can usually be defined as arguing nowadays. The fact that we can DISCUSS this in a mature fashiob only serves to raise my respect for you BT!!

Now back to the DISCUSSION at hand, you have a point on the reduction of force due to let off, but I still feel that the minimal difference in gravitational force would be negligible even at 28#'s. Be it 30% difference in force or 15% in force, they will still bow to the superior force. Most bowhunters I know would rather have a lighter bow, including myself. That is what I have found to be true. Most Target shooters prefer heavier bows, that also is what I have found to be true. So your points have validations, I agree. But the trade off in weight is not that great and in my opinion not worth the minute change in stability that MAY be found in a heavier bow. We're not trying to hit a quarter sized area most times. If we can put an arrow in a space 4 times that size we are considered proficient. In tournament shooting, the difference of a fraction of an inch can be the difference of shooting in the money, or losing. That just isn't true in a hunting situation. If a lighter bow causes my groups to open up slightly, I'm stil hitting the vitals. And I repeat "If". I've shot a heavier bow for years in the T-Bolt. I shoot my Tech 29 a whole lot better!!I believe that the bow market is made up mostly of hunters (80%+) and the trend is for the mfg's to make faster,lighter bows. I think they would be the indice on what hunters prefer, wouldn't you? And if a few pounds made that much of a difference, I can pretty much guarantee, that the trend would be in the opposite direction.

[bowtech]

It seems that at 5AM I am a bit of a grouch! ;D

"Worst " was not at all the word to have chose to describe what I was trying to say

A better word would have been " a lesser performance enhancer" ;D (hell I dont know but surely not WORST!)

Anyway...my point was that there is more to a bow than what may meet the eye and if a bow performs in everyway that you want it to but you decide against it just because of the weight.....wait!

[marksuttonjr]

I prefer a heavier bow. When I went from a Martin Prowler to a High Country Brute Force my groups doubled in size because I could not hold the Brute Force near as steady like I could the Prowler. After several hundred shots I am satisfied with my ability with the BF, but still prefer the heavier Prowler.