Storm F-18 Custom

[hoosieroutdoorsman]

Well I have spent the better part of the last 2 days going over my new bow. For those that may not know it is a 2006 Storm F-18 solo cam that I had altered for me. The axle to axle length is 34 inches, I could have gotten a shorter bow but I am a little over 6`1 and very long arms so the 34 inch fits me more comfortably.The bow is done in Realtree Hardwoods HD and in my opinion one of the best camo patterns I have seen, the film dipping is flawless,smooth as silk over every square inch of the bow. The weight of the bow from factory specs is 4 lbs. But holding it fully dressed it seems lighter than that. The grip on the bow is a 2 piece custom design wood handle in multi color design and is one of the best grips of any bow I have ever felt. The balance is second to none I don`t even need my stabilizer on this bow to hold it, I may be getting rid of it and just putting on some limb savers and calling it quits.
The bow is extremely quiet , no thunks,thuds or pops, rock solid.
It has a 4 inch idler which enables a butter smooth draw and is paired up with their signature P38x cam.
The P38x is an interesting cam, it is a medium cam so it really isn`t made for sub-sonic speeds but I have to say even though I tinkered with everything I could think of to speed this bow up outside of shimming the limb pockets it remained consistant in its speeds.
As for speed?? It is shooting 295 at 68 lbs with a 364 grain arrow. And I have come to the conclusion of what Storm is doing in building their bows.
Now this is just my take from all the playing with and inspecting the bow I have.
In my opinion I think Storm is leaning more towards a high energy bow rather than a high speed bow,, now from everything I have read about their entire line they have great speed so don`t think they aren`t shooters. But they really are some soft shooting hard hitting bows without a doubt. Bowslap had his Reflex Extreme over last night during my Storm inquiry that lasted till nearly 1 am this morning,,his Reflex is a good shooter I have worked on that bow and got it shooting solid 300 fps. and when we did a side by side comparison since we both have the same arrow weights.
He was at 71 lbs. and mine was at 68 lbs. And both were within 5 fps and he will even admit that the F-18 was getting deeper penetration and you could hear the difference in how hard the arrows hit. And I am admitting that I was trying to get the bow up to 315+ but to be honest? I am happy with where it is, the medium cam they have offers pure energy and for hunting you can`t ask for more than that, to have a bow you don`t have to rack out the poundage to get sub sonic speed to have the hitting power and penetration power you want to take any game alive. This bow really threw me for a loop, I had Edgell Terry the head of R&D for Storm alter this bow from an origonal brace height of 7 1/4 inches to 6 inches. Edge worked on it for a couple of months, that is 1 of the reasons I chose him to build it after meeting him I knew he was a man that would not settle for less than perfect. He wasn`t able to get the BH down to 6 inches without going crazy reworking the bow but he was able to get it down to 6 3/8,,, I wanted the lower brace height in anticipation of gaining more FPS. Now that I have really looked over this machine and see what it really does I don`t care if it only shot 200 fps. With the energy this bow transfers you don`t need speed and Storm has really altered how I look at bows now, I will still try to gain all my customers the speed they want out of their bows but I will also now try to help enhance the energy transferal in their own equipment. You can ask bowslap this is 1 hard hitting bow with zero hand shock, I had always thought more speed meant more power and was always envious of the Mathews and Bowtech shooters for their bows so easily topping 300+ fps. But now?? I wouldn`t trade my F-18 for all the Black Max`s out there, energy rules no matter how fast or how slow your arrow has to energy with it to achieve vital impact. The only thing about this bow I didn`t like?? It didn`t have a Teflon Cable Slide and it was equipped with Winners Choice strings. Now don`t go thinking ok here he goes plugging his bow strings,,NOT ! ! Winners choice strings are some of the best on the market hands down,, but I am not a fan of BCY 452X material,,so I had planned on building my own string for it anyway. But the split yoke cable that winners choice made left me a little let down,, They didn`t serve the split yoke or the Y part where the 1 string separates into the 2 strings. This was left unserved and would twist at will,,I can`t say this is a true detriment but for my own PERSONAL>>>> Keyword...Personal taste I want my split yoke served,, in my opinion it is just extra security to preserve string at a key stress point. But I am sure Winners Choice has solid proof that this unserved system will work fine thats why I say that this is only a personal taste issue and not a true quality flaw by any means. Well there it is folks,,,I really can`t say that I would ever try to find another bow to replace this one that WASN`T a STORM.. If you get the chance to shoot one DO IT,, if you could spend 1 hour shooting their bows side by side with any other bow you want I would be willing to bet money you would choose the Storm. 100 Stars for this company,,the customer service,, the quality, and the craftsmanship are as top shelf as you will find. Storm used to be Clearwater Storm, they are out of Auborn,Indiana and I must say the changes they made after the switch over in companies was definately for the better. I am a member on Archerysite.net and Storm has their own board on there and let me tell you,, everyone on their flat out loves their Storms and now I can see why. If there was anything I didn`t cover feel free to ask all the questions you like. The MSRP on the F-18 is $499.99 that is the 34 inch ATA model with a 7 1/4 BH,, it comes in several draw lengths and poundage settings. Very fair prices for awesome shooting bows.

[admin]

Great review Tracy. Thanks for sharing all the info with us.

I can't wait to get down your way and check it out in person.

[hoosieroutdoorsman]

I wish you had or was able to shoot my draw length Mike,,you would get rid of that firestorm if you did,,lol. You know from everything we have talked about that I have been a sort of speed freak,,,,not anymore ! ! Just seeing this bow shooting against 3 lbs. more with the same arrow weight and getting deeper target penetration sold me on energy vs. speed. Like I said it shooting 300 + or - a foot or 2 is nothing at all to sneeze at. But the energy level of this bow is awesome. With 72 FTLbs. of Kinetic Energy you can take anything you like.

[lterry]

Thanks for the review Tracy You are right about speed...

In order to get some of the speeds that some companies get with their bows they are having to give something else up.

Our motto is the "bow hunters bow" and that means we are willing to give up some speed to make the bow the best possible for the bow hunter.

We will be set up at Bedford for the IBO 1st Leg of the Triple Crown. Edgell will be at the booth when he isn't shooting and I plan on being there sometime Saturday and Sunday. Hope to see some of you there. Stop by and say hello and try out one of Storms that we will have there.

[hoosieroutdoorsman]

Well you definately live up to your motto What is the date on the IBO I would love to be there and watch the edge shoot Thank you for building the best bow I have ever had or will want

[lterry]

The 1st Leg of the IBO National Triple Crown is May 19, 20 and 21st. It would be next Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

Hope to see ya there.

[bowslap]

....I believe I may attend that event myself......

No B.S., blowing smoke up someone's rear.....I'm not that kind of person, and anyone that knows me will comfirm that I compromise my thoughts for NO ONE.....

That F-18 custom of Hoosier's is one of the smoothest-shooting bows I've ever shot. I love my Reflex, but it's like this: we were shooting our bows.....my bow is set at a higher poundage than Hoosier's Storm....I shot both, watched Hoosier shoot his Storm.....That Storm, while it was a few FPS slower, was actually hitting HARDER than my Reflex..couldn't believe it at first, thought there was something hokey going on.....the arrows were driven into the target farther, and you could hear the difference in the sound the arrows made on impact.....VERY audible difference....fired a couple of his arrows off my Reflex to see if that was the difference..no difference, to my shock....pure and simple, that Storm hits HARD.....I'd recommend the Storm brand to anyone.......Hoosier definitely got more than his money's worth.....'slap...

[lterry]

"Slap.....look forward to meeting ya

I know ET will be there to set up on Thursday and will shoot as much as possible on Friday and finish on Saturday. I will get there sometime Saturday morning I think..(I have to bake and decorate a wedding cake before I can leave ) So if I am a little later than planned you will know why.

[michihunter]

So can someone explain the possible reason that one bow will shoot faster yet not get as much penetration with the same arrow as the slower bow. Energy and such are nice terms, but they offer no explanation. Pure physics says that more KE should result in better penetration with all else equal. With the Reflex getting more speed, the KE should be higher with the same arrows. And so should momentum. With all due respect to Storm (I'm convinced they are a great mfg!! ) the loss of penetration can not be due to the bow. There is definite energy loss somewhere that has to come from somewhere else. Speed and KE is recorded after release. Momentum is a result of those calculations. Those are the determiming factors of penetration potential. The only thing I can figure out logically is that there is some form of energy loss at the target. Be it the target, the points, the arrow itself, or the tune of the bow (meaning POI direction). Please don't take this as a snub to Storm. It is NOT intended as such. I'm only trying to find out how you attribute this "phenomenom of physics".

[lterry]

I am confused here....

I think the statement that comes to mind is this:

Pure physics says that more KE should result in better penetration with all else equal.

The Storm set at lower poundage than the Reflex, shot slower than the Reflex, but got more penatration than the Reflex. Am I understanding what Bowslap said correctly?

If this is the case....I don't understand this statement:

"With all due respect to Storm (I'm convinced they are a great mfg!! ) the loss of penetration can not be due to the bow. There is definite energy loss somewhere that has to come from somewhere else."

I understood Bowslap to say that the Reflex set at higher poundage, getting slightly more fps...had less penatration in the target that the Storm.

Could it be that "with all else equal" is not as equal as they appear?

[hoosieroutdoorsman]

Thats the beauty of all this archery equipment and physics and geometry,,lol. Ted remember that report on kinetic energy and momentum you posted? That was a great article no doubt about it, but like I replied to that post you can take several Degreed Professionals and they will all have different views and different formulas so to speak on the same subject. It is like the difference between a paralell limb bow and a recurve limb bow, you can have both with the same ATA,BH,DL and DW,,even the same cam and idler set up and shoot 1 arrow out of each bow and you will get different results in speed and penetration. In my simple minded opinion it is the relation of the refelction timing of the limbs and the sync of the cam that dictate what or how much energy the bow will transfer to the arrow. My Storm has a 4 inch Idler,,slaps Reflex has a 2 inch Idler,,maybe if he had a 4 inch on his it would produce more energy than my storm since it was 2-3 FPS faster??? Maybe it wouldn`t be 2-3 FPS faster with the bigger idler?? All the physics majors or degreed proffessors in the world can post what they want about the educated physical science of weight and velocity but until they dissect the limbs of a bow and can measure the reflex timing and the snycopation of the cams and idler I don`t think their findings will be nearly accurate. If someone say Storm could manufacture a bow limb that will reflex ( snap ) back to rest 200ths of a second faster than say a bowtech or mathews that to me is where the true key to the operation of a bow lays, now the P38X Cam of Storms is a interesting little creature. Somewhere in the design of the degrees of its radius lies another key that aids the reflex of the limbs, together they have formed a combo that does in fact deliver pure energy to its arrow.Maybe if the cam had a little more egg shape to it it would deliver that same energy plus speed? Maybe less? Then you have to factor in the string, the strand count,the diameter,the breaking strength of each strand, the memory factor of the string, slap and I had identical strings,I made both all from the same spools of thread,, so that factor can be ruled out.

[michihunter]

But KE is KE. The bottom line is that the amount of energy that comes out of the bow is calculable. Your KE is less than Slaps KE. Your velocity is less than Slaps. Therefore your Momentum is less than Slaps. In that regard, the penetration should be less UNLESS there is energy dispersal to something other than the target. Be it arrow shaft, point of impact being less than straight or whatever, the bow is not the reason ( or shouldn't be anyway) for further penetration. That's just plain physics whether it is understood or not. I'd love to hear Edges thoughts on this.

[hoosieroutdoorsman]

Me too,,the best I can do is make guestimates as best I can figure them out.

[lterry]

My "guess" would be how the arrow comes out of the bow.

Could one be flexing more than the other?

[michihunter]

That's what I'm thinking too Lhonda. The higher speed may be too much for the spine on Slaps arrow causing a bit more flex.

[lterry]

You can go here:

www.archerysite.net/smf/index.php?topic=3064.0

and see how the arrow reacts at the point of release from the Elite 36 and the E-37....the arrow flight for the F-series is very similar.

It could be the "with all else equal" that makes the difference.

[michihunter]

I forgot all about those videos!! Those are great in showing the forces involved when shooting a bow. And I agree that Storm has done a remarkable job in capturing these forces and delivering them to the arrow. No slight against Storm Lhonda, but a properly spined arrow will have a similar result from most of the upper echelon bows (which I would include the Reflex in). I definitely commend Storm as well as Edge in yourself for creating a bow that is comaparative and possibly superior to a lot of the competitors offerings. Like I said, I truly believe Storm is a great bow. But I have to think that the discrepancy of the penetration of the two arrows being compared here is due more to the dispersal of energy AFTER the shot, not during it. Of course I could be way off base, but the laws of physics says that a higher KE at a greater velocity will create greater momentum. Which in turm should cause greater penetration UNLESS there is energy dispersal to something other than the target. Be it friction from a non direct hit, a weaker spined shaft absorbing more, or some other unseen medium.But please don't take this an offense to the Storm bow. It is merely an observation.

[lterry]

I certainly do not take offense in what you are saying. Just trying to understand a little more about the physics part. This is why I am replying to you in regards to this. ET does the reseach and development and I am sure if I ask him to go into detail he would. But, with that said, I do like to reseach some things on my own. This just really caught my interest and therefore I wanted to explore it more.

[michihunter]

Thanks Lhonda for understanding my intent. I'd really be honored to hear ET's thoughts on this. ;D

[bowslap]

Michi.....

I'm not an Engineering Graduate,nor do I claim to be one..I am simply reporting what I seen and heard with my own ears and eyes....I shot both bows, shot both my own arrows and Hoosier's arrows through my own bow....no difference. Hoosier's Storm was "hitting" harder than my Reflex....I'm not making this claim to inflate anyone's ego, I'm just stating what I observed myself. Take it for what you will.......Respectfully, Bowslap....

[hoosieroutdoorsman]

Hey Michi,,how bout you try Larry Wise`s test for kenetic energy? I am going to do it once I get my bow all sighted in at all yardages. I read an article with Larry Wise and he is one of the top rated archers and string builders in the world. He states that the KE conversion charts or programs or whatever they have to convert speed and arrow weight to a Ft. Lbs rating is actually less than factual and can not be used in determining true energy. He states that the readings taken are around 3-5 feet from the bow thus you will attain a higher KE level due to the fact the arrow has just been charged so to speak with energy. To find the true KE of any bow and arrow combination he suggests taking your speed reading at 30 yards, as that is the standard furthest distance of a average shot on an animal. Then take your speed and do the calculation to find your actual KE at the point of impact rather than fresh out of the bow. And I can see how he came up with that,, it would offer a more true energy reading than straight off the end of the arrow shelf,, he even stated that using 2 identical bows and 2 identical arrows will produce different results,,although the variance will be slight they will be different. He said this is due to manufactureing differentials, just .001 of an inch can impact how a bow shoots.He didn`t go on to explain that aspect but what he did explain makes sense to me.

[lterry]

Hoosieroutdoorsman....

That's very interesting...I think I will do some research on this subject. I do believe this does have to do with the fact that all things are not equal between the two bows that we are talking about. But the more I read here, the more I want to learn more about the phyics of a bow.

[michihunter]

I agree about Downrange KE being a great indicator of true potential energy. But once again, that's after the shot. Once the enrgy goes into the arrow, it will not ever increase so the intital reading from the arrow will be the MAX KE that is produced from the bow. Now the downrange KE is a claculation of what has affected the arrow in flight. Be it friction, heat, flex or whatever, the downrange KE difference will be the affect of energy loss on the arrow, not the bow. There are some really great artices on the efficiency of bows, KE, momentum, etc. Here's a link to some great articles that may interest you: homepage.ntlworld.com/joetapley/


BTW- Tracy- sorry for the hijack!! I'll start a new topic on this if you would prefer!!

[hoosieroutdoorsman]

Thats the whole point of it,,unless you take the reading at point of impact your KE reading is about as valid as IBO rating,,everything changes constantly with a bow. Its just like the draw poundage, it may be set on 70 lbs. But a compound bow will generate up to 200 lbs of draw force,,most of your reading or ratings with a bow is just a generalized spec. Thats why so many guys get mad when they get a 320 rated bow and it only shoots 290 after they set it up. Too many variables to get solid accurate readings IMHO

[michihunter]

Most mfg's will inflate their IBo's. That's common knowledge. Bowtech does something that is unique with their Birth Certificates. But I fail to see the relevance of what you state as it pertains to the results of the penetration differences. The chrono measures speed. Whether it be at the bow or downrange. With mass and velocity, you can come up with momentum. With those three figures you can estimate the force that is present at the target. Now with all that said, higher KE and higher speed with the same mass, the penetration should be deeper with the greater figures UNLESS there is energy loss at the arrow. Not the bow!! Simple physics Tracy. No magic involved. So the difference in penetration can only be as a result of something in the arrow coming out of slaps bow. Either the arrow is losing energy from flex, friction or resistance. My guess is that the arrow is more properly matched for your bow than his. Or the point of entry is slightly better with your arrows than his. But that can be fixed with tuning. It's all irrelevant in the end. Both will get pass throughs with that KE and proper shot placement!!

[hoosieroutdoorsman]

Well all that would be great if every aspect of the 2 bows were the same,,but mine has a 6 3/8 brace height and slaps has an 8 inch brace height. Now if I had my bow set at 71 lbs like his instead of 68 my speed would be a few feet per second faster. Shorter brace heights as I am sure you know transfer more energy into the arrow than a longer brace height due to the fact the arrow spends more time in the draw cycle than it does on a shorter brace. Thats why there is a difference, 1 thing I had forgot and so did slap was his bow was shooting 300 fps. that was before he put on his peep. Actually the 2 bows at different poundages are shooting the same speed. Even though they have all the formulas out there and the 2 bows shooting the same arrow at the same speed there should be no difference in penetration due to the KE factor. But there was a noticable difference, and I can`t help but believe the brace height makes that difference. Yes the scientific formulas sound good but with all the variables between bows I don`t put my money on any of them as a final answer,, the performance of the bow is what I rely on,,and no I am not putting anyone down for putting trust in the formulas and numbers we each have our own beliefs. I can`t sell you on my beliefs anymore than you would be able to sell me on yours,,thats what makes the world go around and keeps us all on our toes

[michihunter]

I agree that the proof is more in the pudding than the recipe Tracy. I've said it before. I have the utmost respect for your observations. Can you tell me one thing? Are the arrows out of both bows entering the target at the same angle? I'd bet they aren't even if it's only a minute difference. As I've said before, speed, mass and momentum will give you the force of the arrow at the target which in turn will give you the penetration potential. Period!! Brace Height, Power Stroke and all else is irrelevant once those measurements are recorded. That is the specs of the arrow in flight. The after effects of what the bow delivered. Whether or not those measurements are accurate is a whole other story. But there are givens in these calculations and they are as dependable as the rising sun. But as I've said before, the point is moot with both bows. You both will be getting easy pass throughs with those set ups and proper shot placement. Enjoy the bow Tracy!! I was only wondering what your thoughts were in regard to the discrepancy, not trying to take away from your bows performance!!

[hoosieroutdoorsman]

Yes the arrows flight is identical on both bows, we both have the same rest and both are paper tuned to bullet holes. Actually the brace height and power stroke have everything to do with it,,the power stroke is actually what determines speed,power,energy. I know you aren`t disrespecting me Ted,,never said that buddy nor meant to imply that. And slap and I were as thrown by the bows performance as anyone. Thats why slap took one of my arrows and shot it a couple of times out of his bow,,we couldn`t believe the difference in the 2 with almost identical set ups and arrows. It just didn`t seem possible to either of us,,but there was a very audible and noticible difference. His reflex is a great shooter for a short axle bow,,in all seriousness it was like the difference in useing a 22 oz framing hammer and a 2 lb. mini sledge just in sound alone. I have a bag target set up in front of a block target that mounted on the wall in my garage. I had to put a 1x6 board behind the block target to keep from shooting through the wall, my arrows you could here hitting the board, his were missing it by 1/2 inch. We were only 8-10 feet away from the target, so if there was to be any energy loss during flight, that short of distance would not show it, if the arrow was flying in an unstable manor it wouldn`t paper tune at the same distance to a perfect hole. When the weather clears up and I can get out to the range and paper tune at 15-20 yards that will show if there is any flight errors at all in either arrow,,but at that short of distance both are flying true and the energy loss is almost nill. I know its hard to believe,was for me,but like you said the proof was in the pudding, for whatever reason it was hitting harder. Maybe Edgell cutting the limbs down a 1/2 inch inch on each limb made the difference? It boggles my feeble mind,,lol

[michihunter]

,,the power stroke is actually what determines speed,power,energy

The above quote says what I've been trying to state all along Tracy. That the speeds, power, and energy are measurements that are taken AFTER the arrow is released. That is the arrows characteristics that are caused by the bow or what the bow has done to it. And you have measured those things by way of chrono and scale. With that said, if one bows arrows calculations indicate more speed, which in turn gives more KE, which in turn gives more momentum, the force will be greater with the faster bow using the same mass. UNLESS there is energy loss somewhere in the faster bows arrow. The bows energy has already been transferred to the arrow. That is calculated by speed and mass. Those are measured. It doesn't mater what bow that arrow comes out of, it will still have the characteristics and calculable measurements that can determine force. Which in turn can tell you penetration potential. The only thing that is not measurable is the loss of energy during flight due to resistance (shaft size, vane type, direction of flight), the loss of energy due to flex (lighter spine=more flex), and the loss of energy due to friction at the point of impact (not straight into the target). The proper way to find out if flight is the issue is to do as you stated earlier and take chrono readings first at the bow and then secondly at the target and measure the loss of speed over that distance. That should give you an indication of which arrow is actually flying better and will also give you the reason for the discrepancy. And in turn tell you that the delivery system on the Storm may be better than the Reflex which indeed would be a feat considering a single cam outperforming a cam and a half in arrow delivery (straight nock travel).

[bowtech]

Good review.

I have been entertaining thought of going north to the storm factory to get a closer look at these bows since I am thinking of (thinking ;)about opening a Real shop next year.